This is an interview with Sisuk Michael Leon. It is done in question and answer format.

Q: Question or comment of interviewer.
A: Answer or comment of Sisuk Michael Leon.

BACKGROUND

Q: Would you like to tell us a little about your background in martial art?

A: Since a very early age, I have always been interested in the martial arts. I was interested in all different types of styles and methods, as I did not know specifically what were "Chinese" martial arts. It was not till I was 11, I think it was 1968, that I began learning Chinese martial art. The first system that I learned was an unorthodox system called "Keen Quan".

Q: What does that word mean?

A: The translation of that is heaven and earth.

Q: Would you like to describe that in more detail?

A: It is a fairly unknown system and is basically a "family" type system. The name "Keen Quan" can also be thought of as a generalized type, like using the word "Shaolin." Just as Shaolin may be used as a general term, so can the term "Keen Quan." The foundation of this "Keen Quan" style is basically Taoist in nature, and its martial arts training and way of life rely heavily on Yin and Yang. I personally am not a Taoist, but the methods of the training in this system are from Taoism. This style of gung-fu is a combination of internal and external.

Q: Are there any forms to this style?

A: Yes, there are forms, and like any other system of gung-fu, rumor has it that there are forty such forms, but I personally know about five or six of the most important ones. A serious practitioner can achieve mastery of this system from one or two such forms. In this system of martial arts, forms are not considered to be of primary importance. It is also considered a southern style from Fut San. It is basically a very southern style with a concentration on hand techniques. I believe the only weapon sets are the Butterfly Knives and a staff set. The animals that comprise this particular system are the dragon, phoenix, panther, tiger, and the eagle. The foot patterns are from the tiger, and the hand movements are from the others. The forms compared to other systems are or might be considered very primitive. The average student does not begin learning forms in this system until the third or fourth year.

Q: Who was the teacher of this?

A: I shouldn't mention his name, but all I can say is that he isn't alive anymore.

Q: How long did you practice this style for?

A: I believe it was from June of 1968 to 1973. Maybe August or September of 1973. The first two or three years of this training were devoted to extremely hard and rigorous body training. I would only teach this to someone I considered extremely devoted to the arts, and someone who I felt was worthy, after observing this person for a period of ten years or more. For the first year of learning this system, the emphasis was on strong horse stance training, and how many people want to do that? As I said before, the training is very rigorous and physically demanding.

Q: Where did you go from there?

A: Then I found an interest in Northern Shaolin. In 1972 I learned informally from a friend who was a student at 880 Pacific Avenue in Chinatown. Maybe I did this for about three years. Formally, I learned from Professor Wong Jack Man from perhaps, let me think, November 1980, to maybe, February of 1985? That is from the best of my recollection. I don't remember the months exactly.

Q: That's all right, we wouldn't expect dates that were so exact anyway. What type of techniques do you personally prefer?

A: I personally prefer "Keen Quan" which does not imply that I think that is better. It's just that I think it fits my body configuration more.

Q: Why?

A: Because Buck Siu Lum (Northern Shaolin) seems mainly for a leg-oriented person, whereas I prefer hand techniques. This took me many years to discover even for myself. I believe that everyone should evaluate their own physical capabilities and see what is best for them. I am not saying that Keen Quan is better than Buck Siu Lum, but that my personal preference is for those types of hand techniques.

Q: Why do you prefer hand techniques?

A: Well, I actually don't like standing on one leg, and I prefer to be more grounded. For me, I think hand techniques are faster, and I personally have a better "feel" for them. I just prefer using the animal techniques of Keen Quan, as I feel more comfortable with that. It also might be because I started with that first. The theories behind Keen Quan and Buck Siu Lum are kind of very opposite, I might add.

Q: Do you have a favorite weapon?

A: I have always admired the Three-Sectional Staff. I like the fact that it can be used as a long weapon or as a short weapon. It also utilizes both hands. It is a very difficult weapon and it takes a lot of ability to control it. A practitioner would have to be pretty devoted to master that. I've seen a lot of people hurt themselves with that weapon! And to use that in combat takes another higher level of skill. That's gung-fu ability. Which is much more than just knowing "forms".

Q: What is the usefulness of forms? Some people think the martial arts are only forms. So, go ahead.

A: You just asked me about my philosophy concerning an "external" explanation of gung-fu. This is really difficult. I know it, but it's difficult to put into words. Please don't misinterpret what I'm going to say here. (Pauses. Thinking deeply.) Forms can be for health and exercise, forms can be regarded as "art" like ballet I suppose, or forms can be for self-defense, application, or fighting technique. My philosophy about this is that a good martial artist, in my opinion, is one who can enter a real fight and use the style, and finish the fight using the style. It's not important to me if he wins or loses, BUT, did he keep using the style that he practices? How many competitions have people witnessed where the onlookers are seeing the style that the competitor learned? And I don't mean a forms competition. I'm looking at the overall martial art plateau. Using the style you learned, and fighting that way, that is a very high achievement. It means that the student has really practiced the forms so much that they have "internalized" it. Remember, again, we practice different things for different reasons!

Q: How about teaching people how to fight?

A: I teach self-defense, not fighting. Remember that we are defending first, then counter-attacking. We block first, then strike. If a person really wants to fight, just to fight, then they can learn boxing, since that's more offensive in nature. Self-defense in gung-fu is one of the hardest things to achieve. Let's be realistic. I'm not the biggest person in the world. Compared to people who are 200 pounds, 300 pounds, six foot six or however tall,... well, you need the power. Knowing many forms will not help you. This involves pressure points, vital points, etc. Forms involve flexibility, stamina, good balance, sense of direction, these things are critical to achieve a high plateau in performing ability, for shows, demonstrations, and things like that. but fighting and self-defense, these things involve speed, power, agility, and a sharp eye. Good health is a by-product of both forms and fighting ability. Let me also remind you of a story I've read.

Q: What story is that?

A: You've heard of Sun Lu-Tang, one of China's most famous martial artists, founder of Sun style Tai Chi, etc. etc. I believe a student asked him to teach him how to fight, and he said that the student should look for a better teacher if that is what he wanted. I believe that Sun Lu-Tang was making more of a comment on the student's mental frame of mind. We're here more for the preservation of culture and tradition, and to carry on the name of our school, which is, the Chinese Physical Culture Association. Oh, wait, that's what it was called in San Francisco Chinatown years and years ago! We of course also call it Jing Mo. As in "Jing Mo Athletic Association." It is "Jing Mo Tai Yook Woey" in Cantonese, or "Jing Wu" in Mandarin. You must remember that this school has a long history and also remember what the words "Jing Mo" mean in Chinese. This is something that definitely predates us. It's an honor to be able to uphold a tradition like this! I think that says a lot. I'm very proud to be a member of this school!

Q: Not to change the subject, would you like to talk about your background in lion dance?

A: That would be mostly from the Keen Quan period. That type of lion dance would be mostly southern in nature, emphasizing strength and solidity. Simple, solid, basic. A good lion dance depends on the synchronization of the music ensemble and the lion's movements. Fancy choreography is not half as important as the overall unity of the show. A lion dance still has to be solid and crisp. I prefer the direct approach, and the fancy choreography would be an added plus. I also consider lion dance as an opportunity for all the students to work together as one. A two-man sparring set involves two people! Lion dance involves everybody working together, and that's the hard part to achieve. One high level of a studio is for everybody to work together as one! That is a real gung-fu studio! No egos, just a group performing. That's also a lesson in life too.

PHILOSOPHY

Q: Would you have any ideas on the philosophy of gung-fu?

A: I'm pretty much of an old-fashioned person when it comes to this. The only way to gung-fu perfection is from one's idea of the circle of balance and the way to gung-fu perfection is from one's idea of the circle of balance and yin/yang theory. It's like a person who yells all the time. This is considered to be "out of balance," isn't it? This has many different categories. Balance, being humble, a quiet demeanor, inner peace, good ethics, and respect, all allow a person's spirit to be in balance. For example, a boxer shouldn't get angry, a gung-fu person should breathe normally, and this requires an inner peace. This isn't easy to explain. It's all related to the idea of balance, of positive and negative. Of course, everyone gets angry but... that's what we're trying for. That's the true goal. The universe operates on this circle. There’s a lot to explain with this, and it’s all based on the circle of life, but ... let me just say that. It's actually pretty complex and takes alot of work to achieve!

Q: What can you offer your students?

A: Any aspect of gung-fu that they could hope to achieve or accomplish, I'd be willing to help them with. As we all go to school, and we learn English, Math, history, these are the basics, and everyone must learn the basics. If they have any particular interest in an area of martial arts, I'd be glad to take them there. When learning gung-fu you might want to emphasize good health, self-defense, and rational thinking. If a person wants to emphasize forms, I would help them achieve that. If a person wants to emphasize health, I would help them achieve that, the same with self-defense. Also the same with lion dance, or drumming. I'm here to help them with their interests. I also like to emphasize the "art" part, of the martial arts. Remember, a person who wants to learn to fight, really doesn't need to spend so much time on forms. There are people out there who are really good fighters, and they don't know any forms!

Q: What do you practice personally?

A: For every night for one hour, I practice Keen Quan body hardening exercises. Twice a week, usually on my days off, I do the Northern Shaolin forms. And then I also teach. To show you that I practice these things pretty consistently, look at my hands.

Q: What do they look like? Oh, wow! (The hands are very callused in certain areas.) I can see that you practice pretty often!

A: As you can see by what I've just shown you, the practice is pretty consistent. I like to use the Fung-Ngan (Phoenix-Eye) technique so this is pretty developed here.

Q: I can see that! I can see that there is no "half-way" when it comes to that type of training!

A: There's more than just that, but that's just an example. The average person would really not want to do these things because it's just too much for them. I wouldn't want to waste someone's time if they really didn't want to do it. They would have to have the desire first.

Q: What do you do down at the studio?

A: I assist my friend down there. I coach students who have questions on any particular thing, or need any extra attention on forms that they are learning. I offer a personal helping hand and also offer personal assistance to any student with a problem in any subject. As I mentioned before, I'm here to help the students in whatever aspect of gung-fu that they're interested in. I try to be a good example and role model to our younger students. I also help out in lion dance. Lion dance has now become pretty fancy. Long time ago lion dance was basically for blessing an establishment or advertising a martial arts school. Kind of like a religious ceremony. Today, they have lion dance competition, so things have changed quite a bit. The lions are also very different. Well, the Hok San style has become a big influence on the martial arts and lion dance clubs in the Bay Area. Obviously, all the lions nowadays are more colorful and much lighter than before! In the 1960's and 1970's the Fut-San style was very popular in San Francisco. But things chagne.

Q: And what about lion dance?

A: I believe in teaching foundation training first. The basics are always important. If students want to do things that are more fancy, I’d be glad to help them with that too.

Q: Do you have any favorite events?

A: None in particular. I like performing at wedding banquets, because that’s always festive. It’s a warm event, and we’re adding to it, and are part of it. Everybody's happy! So it's fun.

Q: Anything else you’d like to add, about anything?

A: I’d like to say something about “respect.”  Respect in martial art is everything. You cannot learn without respect. If a student doesn’t believe in his teacher, how can he learn correctly? Or reach a high level of achievement if he doesn’t believe in what he’s learning?  I watch the students. I watch the way they are, the way they act.  In America, I think the students more or less“shop” for a teacher, but in the real gung-fu way, it’s really the other way around. Respect is something that should be practiced everywhere in life. It’s like the balance that I talked about earlier. If you follow your own Yin/Yang balance line, you can find peace within yourself.

Q: Any story about the people you learned form?

A: One of the teachers was very strict. It was not easy to learn. I think both my teachers were very strict actually. The first was physically strict. He would hit the student in regards to gung-fu training. My other teacher was very calm, quiet, and very peaceful.  I’m really thankful for what I’ve learned.  It has brought me a long way.

Q: Anything else?

A: I could go on for days, and days, and days, so,  I think that will be about it.

Q: Thank you, Sisuk Michael, very much for sharing your experiences with us!